I am here with Hannah Fowler, who is one of our Kasama collective graduates.

My name is Hannah. I was part of the summer into fall Kasama collective cohort of 2021. I currently work in corporate communications and PR in New York city.

The reason I asked Hannah to join me today is that the episode that you listened to this week productivity and hacked was her idea. So I wanted to actually start by asking why you pitched this episode.

I had originally pitched. This episode due to my own internal battles and frustrations surrounding productivity, my particular lack of productivity. And feeling incredibly frustrated by this cult on the internet of people claiming. To be incredibly productive and here are 10 tips and I kept seeing headline after headline of this obsessive newness around the topic and figured it could make a good potential podcast

episode. And what was your original vision for the episode?

Well, we had gone back and forth a bit between. Whether it would be centered on me. There was actually a book that was introduced to me during the Kasama collective this book called designing your life by bill Burnett. And Dave Evans

It was such a clarifying moment for me of my life to read this book that was essentially talking about how to build a life that you want. That had nothing to do with what time you wake up in the morning tracking how much water you're drinking, how often you go to yoga.

It was another perspective regarding this topic. And we sort of were torn between, oh, do we interview Dave Evans and bill Burnett? Or is this more so centered around my own life and my own experience, struggling with this currently.

My original vision always was making it personal to me so yeah, the vision was pretty close to how it came out.

What assumptions did you have going into this process before we actually started the episode

in assumption that I had about this process was that.

Once you figured out the topic you had, the script, you had the ball rolling, that everything just falls into place afterwards. I always thought that the uphill battle was those first formative stages where you're very much trying to nail down what the episode is about, how you're going to tell it.

And I sort of figured, oh, now we know. I'm included in it. We have the outline for the script. We know what elements we want to include. We're set from here. This is going to be pretty simple. Step-by-step and that was a huge assumption that I made because was not that linear process.

At all it zigzagged, it went backwards. It went forwards 10 steps, backwards, five steps throughout the entire process. And so I don't think I was fully prepared for that back and forth, but it was great and it made the episode really great.

Your episode was one of the last ones, , in the Kasama collective, the way that that is set up, you all are going through the same modules that Kasama lab students go through. But then part of that process is that we're actually working with you to build episodes together.

And we'd been working on it for a while, but you had seen some fairly straightforward ones happen before that. Sometimes it does happen that you have an idea, you execute it. It goes exactly as planned. Those are lovely moments when that happens.

But I love the experience that we had together making this because as nice and convenient as it is, when things go as planned, I do often find that the episodes that end up being my favorites are the ones where it didn't go that way. Because there's so much growth that happens in that process of being in what we're calling the messy middle.

We didn't make up that term, but it's a common term for. Part in production or in the creative process where you've got the idea. , you've done a lot of work. It's not new, and yet you can't quite get through that middle to the ending of wherever you're ending up in your story.

So, Hannah, tell me a little bit more about how , your understanding changed once you were actually doing the episodes. And shaping that process directly. What surprised you positively or negatively as you were actually in that process?

Even though. You think you have all the pieces together and you're pretty deep into the process it's a blessing and a curse that there's always room to keep pushing and to dig deeper and to make it better.

And that was something I'd like to think was a very positive. Learning that I took from the process in terms of understanding that there's a lot more, you can give to something more than you thought. That was a really poetic part of the process because it ironically was about me feeling so burned out and feeling like I couldn't give To any creative process I was in. And then simultaneously I was learning during this podcast episode that there is always space and time. You were really great about that too, in terms of, we kept having to rearrange the timeline, we kept pushing it back. And again, , it's not linear, there were parts of it that we could work on here right now in this moment.

And then other parts that we were able to put on pause, I didn't realize about the process that, there are ways you can still chip away at it. That don't feel huge in the moment, but that's ultimately what makes it super messy.

You mentioned designing your life by bill Burnett and Dave Evans. And so I actually wanted to read a quote from that book that you drew my attention to in this process and the quote is this like most elements and timelines of creation, nothing is linear.

You land in front of one door only to open another, a few feet away and then circle back a few weeks later to a door you didn't know existed. I love that quote because it perfectly describes what was happening to us in that process of creating productivity and hacked.

You mentioned burnout it was the holidays November going into December and it was a busy time, the overwork that so many of us were doing in the pandemic and working from home, .

And that push for productivity has felt, I know at least for me, even stronger than usual. The interesting thing about this episode is that we were working out our own struggle with that as we were not only writing the script, but really as we were putting it together. This is the only episode this has ever happened to me, where I had not only written my portion of the script.

You'd written your. And we had both recorded our VO for it because this episode goes back and forth between our two VO, but it was actually after that, I was starting to work on editing the audio. And as I was listening through, I was like, we're not there.

And so I reached out to you at that point. What was sort of heartbreaking about this episode at the time was that wasn't even the first time that we'd had that moment.

We had those moments also when we were writing the script and lots of back and forth of what are the things that we really need to focus on. And is this really the right anecdote? And are we coming about this in the right way? And I remember so much back and forth with you in the script writing process, but because we were both just so tired.

It was not coming together the way that we had envisioned it, at least in the beginning. We needed to get a couple of weeks under our belt of having recorded the video, letting it sit there for a minute while we did other things and then coming back to it with fresh eyes or fresh ears.

And then we could finally see our way there after some more conversation. But Doing this process, both by myself and with other people, , more than 150 times at that point, it still was hard. How is it for you coming in relatively new to this, your idea, , your baby

how did that feel for you to be in that messy middle with me? I just would love for you to talk about that process,

They always talk about how our imitates life, life imitates art, and it was such a reflection of everything going on and. Now, when I think about the episode, I noticed it shifted the way I thought about certain things and. I was thinking of this the other day when new year's was coming up. And once again, what's your new year's resolution. How are you becoming a better person?

What are you doing every month? And it was crazy for the first time. I did not have a single new year's resolution. I didn't partake in anything. I wasn't thinking about what I'm going to start doing, how I'm going to start working out and, digging deep in that process and having to confront everything that I was feeling and going on was it was hard, but it was quite honestly more cathartic anything.

what was funny for me was that was the first time. I remember thinking, wow, I get why Laura loves this. I get why people love doing this because you reached this place of understanding almost where , you're putting in this physical output and effort and emotional effort. That is extremely gratifying.

It honestly felt really good. Everything felt worth it. It felt like an accumulation of all these different things that I was learning and really cathartic in a weird way.

I understand why people love, creating these episodes.

The moment that crystallizes that for me was , standing in my kitchen and we use this voice memo app Voxer a lot with our Kasama collective trainees. And so you and I were sending boxers back and forth about the episode but I just remember this moment where we started to understand how deep this was for both of us that need to always be improving and productive and, feel like we were doing something all the time, actually facing that and saying, is this assumption that we have that doing more is doing good?

, is that actually true? And what happens if we just. Stop taking that as a given and instead step back, even further and ask ourselves what's underneath that. And I remember both of us came to this realization of, it's because it's scary to be a human being in this world and feel like you matter.

Or like why your life is worth something. And so when you're really facing these intense existential questions, it's so easy for us to cover that up with productivity and with achieving things. And, this episode, there's so much fun in it, but at its core, it really is this very deep question.

Why are we here? What's the purpose of our lives. And it was so exciting to get to that point with you. I remember, both of us were like, I just got chills, listen to your message. And that to me is the magic that can happen with the creative process. It doesn't always, right.

Those moments are so rare. I've learned to appreciate them when they happen,

I remember that too. Another part of it that was fascinating for me was that, , we live in this world where it's so easy to go on the internet to go on Twitter or to go on YouTube and talk about how productive and while you're doing without actually having to put in the work of.

Being productive and doing well. And it felt good to be creating something that, , felt honest and was pushing back against that conversation.

Yeah. I love that. So let's talk about how we got out of it. We did a lot of going back and forth and talking to each other.

, sort of looking at the script or at the later stages, listening to the voiceover we'd recorded and then going back to each other and talking about it again. But what were some things that you found. When you were getting stuck, what were some useful, helpful tools or exercises that you use to push yourself past that

something that helped me get out of the messy middle. Was being very coachable and that's something I started to realize towards the middle of the Kasama collective was that it wasn't necessarily about being, the best technical Wiz, or having. The best script. As we mentioned, you can have all those pieces in place and there are times where it's still won't feel right or sound right. But something for me that was incredibly helpful was being able to switch gears really quickly. And as Laura mentioned before, we would use Voxer to send each other audio messages.

And I remember when she sent me the audio message of, we need to keep digging deeper. There's an element here that's missing. I believe it's saved us a lot of time in that process was being able to say, okay, . Let's just dive in and start talking about it.

There was no let me give it a week because I still need to perfect. My thoughts on this. It wasn't about perfection. It was just about. Being able to be a team player and that push and pull of following someone's gut instinct about what's working and what's not, and really playing off of the person and being a part of that shared process, because I find so often with creative things.

There are way too many ways you can get stuck. And often it's because, you're set in your vision and how you want it to look and how you want it to sound and what you want to say, but being able to just take critique in tried and understand that it's pushing your episode to be better was a huge aha moment for me.

But then , it's just knowing which parts of the process you can tinker with and what you're comfortable leaving until the last minute and those parts that you can finish in the moment.

Yeah. I love that you brought that up and the timeline is always something to consider.

It's hard to do when you're doing a podcast all by yourself. Especially if you have a cadence, a weekly rhythm, , it's really tight or daily, even more so, so it's not always an option to move things around, but a lot of times it is. And even times when I've thought, well, there's just no way that I could ever move this episode around because I've got to have something done and I only have this many days left.

And then you realize, maybe this is a chance to do a feed drop of another podcast I've done that, I would say on a fairly regular basis.

And it provides a lot of reprieve in those moments where you just need an extra week or there are different kinds of episodes that you can do. , maybe if the one that you're working on is a really heavy lift. Maybe have it interspersed with one that's a little shorter and lighter, and maybe just more of a simple concept that, , the, the beauty of being an indie podcaster is the podcast is whatever you define it to be.

So part of getting out of the messy middle for me has been just recognizing it. Doesn't always have to look exactly the same. , yes, you want to stay consistent with whatever your show's about. But there are a lot of different ways that that can luck . We can get away with a little bit of flexibility in that might actually end up being a really positive thing, to have a little bit more of a rhythm and cadence to the kinds of episodes that are going out.

And

also, part of it is just to not be overwhelmed, especially if you're new to it case in point Laura's a seasoned vet and has done this so many times and it looked a lot different. Ben, what we had originally thought and planned.

And it just goes to show that no matter where you are in the process to not cave and feel like it's overwhelming, you. You are in control of it as much as you allow yourself to be. And that's also something I realized working alongside you in this process too, it's super important to establish, , your schedule, your timeline, the general guardrails that keep you in check.

When I was choosing this topic and, in the beginning, I was really scared to tackle this because I remember saying this to you. It's too big there too many moving parts. It touches on everything, just your lifestyle, the internet, health, and wellness and productivity.

And it's too much. And I don't really know what I can contribute to it. That was a really cool moment, , because even while we were doing it, I always kept thinking, wow, I'm, being a part of creating something that is going to contribute to this conversation in a different way.

And that's just going to be kicking around in the world. And maybe that's just all it is at the end of the day, but it does feel really rewarding . It's that mindset can really help you push through the process because it is not the end all be all of anything. That's, where I landed

with it.

One of the most helpful things that I have learned is to accept the overwhelm and the messy middle as a. Normal. And maybe even sometimes necessary part of the process that when I find myself there, I don't ever enjoy it.

But then if you can just let it be okay. That it's messy for a minute. That can take up a lot of pressure. To push on through the end. And recognizing in that moment, what are the constraints that are in place that are going to force you to make a decision one way or another, , you and I had the luxury of being able to take some time with us.

Let's give it the weekend. Let's give it , a couple of days to make sure that. Have some space, we can get a good night's sleep, maybe do something else for a little while and then come back to it and see if that fresh perspective sort of opens a door for us. And usually it did. But there are times where you don't have that.

And so you have to just say, I got to get an episode out in two days. What am I going to do? I'm feeling really stuck. Okay. I've got to just figure out a way to let good enough be good enough and just start putting the pieces together.

, that's the beauty of this medium is there is a certain impermanence to it where there's always another. And hopefully your career as a creator and a producer and a podcasts will be long. Hopefully you will be able to keep doing this and keep improving and keep figuring out better strategies to get through the production process because you just do more and you learn more, but just accepting that, that messy middle it's a normal part of every creative process, not just podcasting.

the sooner that. I became okay with that, it was a huge relief to just realize this is normal and everybody else's has their own messy middle too. So maybe it's reaching out to somebody if you're feeling really stuck and even if you're not working on the project with somebody else, I remember in season one of shelter in place, when I was doing those episodes by myself, it was oftentimes.

The thing I needed was just to go for a walk or, , sit on the back porch and have a conversation with Nate about it, or just talk to somebody about it. That often was the thing that would get me through that messy middle to be able to see where the episode was gone.