Laura: [00:00:00] I am here with Lauren Pacelle, who is truly one of the forces of greatness and podcasting. You have been somebody who. Just continues to amaze me with how prolific you are and how you seem to know everybody in the industry and have your finger on the pulse of all of the cool things that are happening.

And I feel like every time I talked to you, I learned something new, which is why I was just so excited to have you talk to our students today in this module on pitching.

I would love for you to just introduce yourself and a little bit of your work. And as part of that introduction, tell us what was the path that got you to the work that you're doing 

Lauren: now? 

And he was Lauren Pacelle and the founder of tink media, and I have two podcasts, newsletters podcast, the newsletter and podcast marketing man.

And my media company, I help podcasts grow. And I got there in an unusual way. I worked in book publishing and I thought I would be there my whole life. And I really liked podcasts when I was at the book publishing house and I was the director [00:01:00] of social media for the house. I was not on the PR team, but the PR team knew that I understood podcasts and loved them.

And so. They would reach out and say, Hey, can you help us pitch David Sedaris to podcasts? And I'd be like, yes, please. Like, it was something I enjoyed doing. It was really fun. And I learned right away. I didn't know what I was doing. I would just email the podcasts and say, can David sitters be on your show?

I didn't think anyone would get back to me, you know? And it worked. And I was like, I can do this. And the publicists podcasting was a totally new world. They didn't understand how to work with podcasters. The schedules are different. the pitch letters needed to be done. So I realized that there was a need for someone to specialize in this.

So I left that company. It was really sad. I loved book publishing and I still do, but I went to work for a podcast company. And then a year later I started tank and the original idea was to help authors get onto podcasts, to promote their books. And. Immediately. I was like, oh, you know, I reach out to the podcaster and they'd be like, wait, I need help [00:02:00] marketing.

Can you help me with this? Can you help me with this? And I was like, I guess I can, no one seems to know this. I'm making up the rules. Not a lot of people are doing this and you know, I have this team of seven people now and we're kind of creating a lot of the rules and making her own way. And it's such an exciting place to be. It's a very busy place to be. Cause a lot of people need help. 

Laura: Let's talk about why is pitching important and what are some of the different ways that people can pitch their work? 

Lauren: I think a lot of podcasters think I'm going to make something great. I'm going to put all my energy into that. And that's not enough because if you don't. Pitch your podcast to people, maybe no one will hear it. I think a lot of people assume that it's going to get fed somewhere. People will find it and that's not true. There's three places. I think people can start with, you know, there's infinite amounts of partnerships, creative ways.

You can work with people and get your podcast out in the world. But three things that I think are overlooked are newsletters. Social media is overrated [00:03:00] for how effective it is. A social media is good for the audience who already have, but it's not good for getting new audience or getting new downloads on the other hand, newsletters work.

So people will click on newsletters or find your show after reading about it in a newsletter. And there's a lot of podcasts, newsletters out there, subscribe to all of them and read all of them for a while before pitching. But another tip is, Read them. There's a lot of them, podcasts newsletters.

One earbuds is one get used to the tone, make sure you're a good fit for a pitch and then pitch yourself and just send an email. I get a lot of pitches, like cold pitches and I don't have time to read them all. But when I send out a newsletter, I am monitoring every single response.

Because I want to know if I spelled something wrong or made a mistake, or if someone liked something. So my tip is respond to the last newsletter that they sent out with your pitch instead of sending a new email, because they're sure to see it and they'll know that you're a subscriber and that you read their last name.

So newsletters are huge, not [00:04:00] just podcasts, newsletters, niche newsletters. If you have a food podcast, look up food newsletters there's other things like applying to be featured in apps. You know, there's no silver bullet, but getting featured on apple podcasts or something Can be a game-changer and there's easy ways.

There's links to apply for apple and Stitcher. And when I first learned of the apple link, I thought, oh, they're just placating us. They're not looking at these, but I've talked to people at apple and they do , read them. And I've gotten it to work where I've submitted and my show has been accepted.

So I on a regular basis, Submit my shows to be featured on apps. And then the third one, I would mention is just very general, but other podcasts. And there's a million other ways you can work with other podcasters, but you want other podcasters in your niche to be your best friends so that you can work together.

Do partnerships together, call on each other for help. You need your podcasts, friends in this space because by interacting with them,. You are getting the ears of people who already listen to [00:05:00] podcasts. If you get written up in the New York times, that's a lot of people who. Even have a podcast app on their phone.

I bet if you surveyed people who were featured in the New York times, they would say it did nothing for their numbers. You want to find people who are already listening converting a non podcast, listener to a podcast. Listener is very hard and it's not your job. Your job is to turn podcast listeners into your podcast, listeners 

Laura: in your experience, what do all great pitches have in common?

Lauren: I think a great pitch expresses that you're not asking for something , you should present it as a co-marketing opportunity. Make sure you tell the person that you want to work together to help them to partnerships, , help both sides. So when you're pitching, make sure you're. Letting them know how you can help them.

So think you're a negotiator, think what do I have and what do I want and what do they have and what did they want for me? So if you have a newsletter, you know, you can throw that in and say, I could [00:06:00] feature in my newsletter, you know, anything extra, can you be a guest on my show? And if I'm a guest on your show, Make it seem like you are offering them an opportunity. They can't pass up. 

Laura: What is a promo swap for people who don't know and why should people do them? 

Lauren: Promo swap is when one podcast or recommends another podcast. In their show and vice versa. So I would on my podcast, feed the queue, say, Hey, if you're enjoying feed the queue, you're going to love this podcast for my friend.

It's called shelter in place, and then you would do the same thing for my show. You get started by emailing your podcast, friends that I told you to make and asking them if they'd like to do a promo swap, you decide how long they are, you know 30 seconds. If it's in the middle of an episode, you provide them with copy.

So I would send you a copy for you to read if it's a host read, which I recommend people read them themselves, because the reason they work is they feel like a personal recommendation from the podcaster. Your listeners have a [00:07:00] parasocial relationship with you. They love you. And they'll do what you say.

So if they are recommending a podcast, a lot of listeners will think their friend is recommending them something, and they'll go follow them. It's a really intimate recommendation. 

Laura: So what's the biggest mistake that you see people make when it comes to pitching and podcasting? 

Lauren: People sometimes don't make thoughtful pitches. A pitch should take you at least 15 minutes or 20 minutes to write. Let alone listening to the show to make sure that it's a good match and that you can prove that you've listened and that's a lot of time. So maybe your plan shouldn't be to pitch. 200 podcasts. . It's better to start with 10 that are perfect and write the perfect letter after listening. 

One tip is, I often hear podcasters say, I can tell they listened to my most recent episode, the first 15 seconds.

And they mentioned something about that. That's the lazy. Say, I noticed you're frustrated with this [00:08:00] topic and my show addresses that too. Or I heard you talking about this specific issue or, be really specific to show that you're a fan, the pitching, there's this whole, I don't even like saying it spray and pray where you just blast everyone and cross your fingers that somebody writes back and it gets almost nothing. And when I take time, it's just so worth it. The more you work on your letter, the more personal it is. And the more, it doesn't feel like a pitch, the better I wouldn't even send a PDF pitch letter, podcasters, want human relationships. So just write a personal note. 

Laura: Did you learn that first in book publishing? Because I feel like I learned that first in approaching agents and editors and I would spend days sometimes researching them and, reading books, they'd it. And making sure that I understood the kind of agent or editor that they were. In book publishing, you hear a lot more about it, like really do your homework before you submit.

[00:09:00] But I'm curious, is that where you learned at first or do you feel like that's something that's come to you with podcasting?  

Lauren: I wish I had learned that in book publishing, but I wasn't pitching people that wasn't my job. I was doing social media for the company and also helping acquire books.

So when I first started my company, my mentor was starting her own PR agency for authors. And I emailed her and said, first of all, why is no one doing this company? Should I start it? And she said, yes. And I will forever thank her because I said, well, Start by working for you. And she said, yes. So I got my start learning PR from her.

God bless her. Nicole Dewey, my guardian angel. That's how I learned how to enter PR I haven't been doing it for that long, which sometimes comes in handy because I don't do things the traditional way. 

Laura: What do you wish that every podcast or understood about this 

industry?

Lauren: It's hard for everyone. Indies and the big shows, they have the same problems on different scales. So , the goals [00:10:00] are always the same, be consistent. You spend 50% of your time on marketing, but also remember that marketing is not going to save the day.

You have to have a great show. And also. The one difference I would say is, I think Indies, it's going to get harder and harder. They need to work together. And that is why I started my swap database, which if you go to tink media.co there's a swap database where you can enter your show and a few small details like what keywords your show is the name about the size that you are, you enter the database and then you can go view the database.

Friends to work with. So you can say, oh, that show looks kind of similar to mine or similar in size. And then their email addresses there. You can learn more about them and then reach out to them for a partnership. And I made that because I want podcasters to work together. It is my mission. And also I need other people to learn about promo swaps.

That's why I love talking about them because I need other people to understand what they are so that I can work with them. It will make my [00:11:00] life better. My job easier and podcasts better. 

Laura: Yeah. I was so excited when you did that database. And I think for the record, you were one of the very first people I ever did a promo swap with and I feel like I've really learned.

Why it was so cool. And it's now something that is like, yes, of course I'm doing promo swaps all the time, like every episode, if I can. And so I don't know if I've ever officially gotten to thank you for that, but it was , very early on in shelter in place.

And I have just loved that experience ever since then 

Lauren: that is music to my ears. I think I reached out to you or I put something on lady.

Oh the listserv. And I think you responded. And I think what happened with you and this is what happens a lot, and this is why I'm so glad you're recording this right now. And sharing the information with people is because , you know, someone and say, would you like to do a promo swap with my client,. And they say, that sounds good.

Can we zoom about it? I think, oh, you don't know what that is. So then I get on zoom with them and I'm like dancing around my apartment, so excited about promo swaps and teaching people how to do it. So if I can get [00:12:00] more than one person at a time, I can't teach all 4 million podcasts. There's how to do promo swap.

Laura: We're doing it, Lauren, at least everybody in our course will know what a promo swap is. And one of the module exercises is to get them to create talking points and actually. Draft an email to another podcast or in make a dream, less of people that they want to do swaps with and record a 32nd promo.

So that they can just say, I'm ready to go. I can talk to this person. I think I really learned that first from you, so truly thank you. 

Lauren: I love it. That is so exciting. And tell them , if each of them tells two people, then we'll multiply. So spread the word.

Laura: What is the main goal of the work that you're doing now, if you haven't already said it, and I would love to just give you a chance to share anything else that you want to in this conversation that we haven't talked about. 

Thank you. My company is really important to me it's growing and, I never thought I'd be a business person.

Like I thought my company would just be me, my laptop on my [00:13:00]couch with a few clients. And now I have a team there's seven of us. They're not awful time, but it's these people that are really excited about the space and I want to be a leader and I need to be a business owner and thinking of the future.

And so that's important to me. And also Arielle Nissen, Blatt, and I do podcast therapy. That's very important to me where we consult people. It's really fun. I want to grow that because I think we're able to help a lot of people at once because there's short, tight sessions. I also, have , these two newsletters that are continuing to grow and thrive.

You know, people has a really high open rate. I think people need the podcast marketing magic, open rate isn't as big because people need that information. And I want to give them that information. there's a huge education gap, so I want to educate people with my newsletter and then podcasts, the newsletter of course.

I want to help discoverability. Then my database is important to me. I need people not just to enter the database, but go back and check the database. If no one's checking it, it will die. So I need to remind you about that. And [00:14:00]then finally, I just launched a podcast for the first time. It's called feed the queue.

And it goes along with my mission of discoverability Adela, Ms. Ratchye of podcast brunch club, and I are hosts. And each episode is a episode of another podcast that we love we're trying not to make it about us. We just do a quick intro and say, here's an episode we think you'll love. We want to spread the word about it.

Maybe it wasn't on the apple top charts, but it wasn't our hearts And the first episode features the show called it's nice to hear you. And I'd love people to, go check it out and reach out to me. If they have recommendations for shows, we can cover.

Lauren: That's kind of it.. 

Laura: I will include links to every single thing that you just mentioned in our course modules. So that hopefully everybody who listens to this signs up for your newsletters and listens to feed the queue and get to the database and all the other things.

So thank you so much for all that you do, Lauren. It is truly amazing and such a gift to all of us. 

Lauren: Thank you. I appreciate everything you're doing. And thank you for inviting me to [00:15:00] talk about my favorite thing.