Great Story: Nik and Laura reflection

[00:00:00] Laura: So Nick, do you remember what was your original episode idea?

[00:00:04] Nik: My original idea was how I found grounding rituals of rest during the pandemic that were really life-giving for me. So it was specific to my experience, but also very vague. And I remember wanting to. Bring in other members of our cohort to talk about if they had any rituals of rest, but I didn't end up doing that at all because instead I went into my own story deeper, which I didn't expect to do so much.

[00:00:35] Laura: One thing that you did really well from the get-go was identify an idea that was both specific and also at the same time, universal You know, I think this is one of the interesting kind of magical things about storytelling by telling one person's experience of a thing, we can also get this resonance that. [00:01:00] Extends to all of our experiences. And we can all hear in that one very personal experience, reflections of our own experience.

[00:01:08] So it's like the personal becomes universal. I think you understood that you had a personal story to tell. And what I saw happen through the process is

[00:01:17] All of us working in that episode, realized our need for rest. , that was your search where you were longing for that rest.

[00:01:25] And Nate and I, because we were both working on the script with you, we started having conversations about rest and our own life. That is what the best storytelling does. That enjoyment and that engagement of the story causes you to actually reflect on your own life as well.

[00:01:42] Nik: And also to accept yourself, you know, just sharing stories to connect and belong in a way. it's just like a form of accepting 

[00:01:51] Laura: yourself 

[00:01:52] I think that's right. we've talked about the search for home and. Your story is very much also that that search for [00:02:00] home is a literal home, but it's also this way that we can feel at home in our own bodies and accept who we are and that journey is its own search for home.

[00:02:10] Nik: When I was originally. Looking at shelter in place and all the episodes, they were categorized all in this very lovely way. And I saw home and also faith. It just felt like my episode automatically fit into these larger themes, which are the universe. 

[00:02:26] Laura: So in the beginning you came in with this idea, of an episode about finding rests 

[00:02:31] And I remember reaching out to you and saying, Hey, you know, looking at the production schedule, we can do your episode here or here. If we did it next step, it means we're really going to have to put the pedal to the metal and do a lot very fast, which realistically you kind of always do with a weekly podcast, but we knew that yours was going to be the first of the team to go through that process and that it was going to, in some ways be accelerated 

[00:02:56] It was right before I was going off to sheep hide cast live. I [00:03:00] was speaking there this past year. And so I knew I was going to be out of town. Nate was kind of taking over a lot of the duties I normally would have done including this episode.

[00:03:08]

[00:03:08] Laura: And I would love for you to just tell the story. Behind this episode and the script writing process. 

[00:03:15] Nik: well, whenever I am asked to do something, I always take a second and just listen to my intuition So I was like, okay, I think I could do this. And then I kind of had to gather \ things that I had been researching immediately because , it's a long process.

[00:03:33] writing an episode and I know you encouraged our team from the beginning to be working on it as we were going. So I had already. Done some research and I knew that I wanted to interview Jake, 

[00:03:44] and you also decided to interview me. And I didn't actually expect that at all. I thought there wasn't really a reason to interview. but I'm really glad that you did, because it really helped me think about my [00:04:00] story in a new way.

[00:04:01] was a way of seeing what my story looked from an outside perspective, I would say. So even though I didn't end up using any of that interview tape I was really grateful for that. 

[00:04:14] Laura: and then Take me through kind of what happened after that? 

[00:04:19] Nik: because I discovered the Shabbat practice through Jake and also ended up falling in love and being in a relationship. I thought that there was no way that I couldn't include him. Like he was a character in this story, for sure. You encouraged me. Okay. This week, you should definitely interview Jake So when I initially told him I was pitching this idea for shelter in place, I said it would be great if you could be in this episode. so I just had to get his permission. And that happened immediately.

[00:04:51] Laura: You bring up. Very important point, which is when you're bringing somebody else into it, are they okay with you mentioning them by name? are they okay [00:05:00] with you mentioning a really. Personal moment, , as was the case in Europe episode. I think about the outtake, this very sweet, intimate conversation that you and Jake have.

[00:05:10] It's very playful. And it's also a little bit tender and vulnerable, and I know that you and Jake had a moment of him not being sure that he wanted that in there. And so we kind of talked about it and, you know, I said to you like, well, of course, if he doesn't want it, we'll take it out. And Also, I really hope he'll think about leaving it in because it's just a wonderful moment that I think gives him. So much humanity and just shows what a really lovely person he is. 

[00:05:36] Nik: Yeah, absolutely. And, that's a really important part just to even think about it beforehand, because when you're on a weekly podcast, there isn't a lot of time to process it. 

[00:05:49] you know, I played the episode for him and made sure he did feel comfortable with everything 

[00:05:55] And another thing to just know and say is that writing [00:06:00] for narrative, nonfiction podcast of writing, it is going to change. 

[00:06:05] And So you were away and Nate was helping me.

[00:06:09] He wrote notes, like on my script as I was writing he was also writing your voice for a little while and sharing his perspective of the Sabbath based off of your experience as a family. And it was going well, but it was also a lot to process. Yeah. And I did not anticipate that because as I was thinking about rest and thinking about Judaism, I realized that part of the reason why I loved it so much was because it was very different from my upbringing and the church that I went to.

[00:06:45] And I had to re-examine that church and go back in that moment. and decide how I wanted to describe that experience. And it just felt very vulnerable to do that. I did not anticipate the level of vulnerability. [00:07:00] I remember saying, do you think this is okay, then I'm saying all these things about my former church. He's like, yeah, you're just talking about your experience. 

[00:07:10] And then we always have. Of read aloud for the script. And , the whole team can share their opinion and thoughts, and that happened as well, but nothing major was suggested. So we felt like we A final ish product. Then Laura came back from she podcasts. And we did end up changing things. You realized that the tension was missing from the story. The backstory as well of my housing situation in Philadelphia, 

[00:07:43] Laura: where a lot of attention came from. 

[00:07:45] Nik: Exactly. So just delving into. And pulling out another story about a former relationship and the pain that I had experienced from a roommate really helped give context for [00:08:00] my rejection of Jake, which was this moment of tension in the story that wasn't fully developed or described. So I just, yeah, you pulled out a lot of those uncomfortable moments. It's always really important script writing. 

[00:08:15] Well, 

[00:08:16] Laura: and I think that a shout-out to you is appropriate here because that moment, you know, when I came back and I read through the script and I was working through it and kind of asking questions, I mean, That's always the process that I go through when I see a new script is paying attention to what questions do I have? , Questions that I feel like need to be answered for a satisfying story or episode or whatever you're working on. And, , we realized pretty quickly that what I'd stumbled into unbeknownst to me was actually kind of a sensitive moment in your history.

[00:08:48] Like it wasn't something that you were super eager to share. And I remember, , saying to look we don't have to go here if you don't want to, we don't have to. And also if you're [00:09:00] willing to go there, even just with me and talk about this, , it may get us to some place that we actually need to end up. And we can always decide to cut it. 

[00:09:11] Actually learned this first in fiction I would be writing about something and I would realize just kind of like a discomfort I wasn't eager to dig in deeper to this thing, because for whatever reason, it was making me uncomfortable.

[00:09:24] And, you know, I think it's On the one hand important to say, , nobody is obligated to go into your own pain. You get to make that decision for yourself when you write something, whether or not you want to go there. And sometimes the right answer is no, am not somebody who believes that the all important stories. Is worth, , exploiting people or re-exploiting ourselves. I mean, I, think there is a line to be drawn there and also those moments of discomfort in ourselves, if we can do it in a way that feels safe and that feels, you know, maybe scary, but also like, okay, this [00:10:00] could be a healing thing to work through this.

[00:10:02] They can be some of the most interesting moments in writing and in stories because. Almost always they're clues to something else. Our negative emotions, especially in life they're signals, , that something's not right. And so those moments in a story, when you feel those negative emotions or that discomfort, or however you want to talk about it, it's a signal to you that something isn't right.

[00:10:25] And. It may be something that's already in the story that you just need to pull out a little bit more, or maybe you actually want to just slice it out and not include it at all. That's, , of course always the other option. And sometimes we do that, but I think what you chose to do in that moment, which was to go deeper into it and, , to, trust me with your story.

[00:10:46] That was the first step. Whether or not we ended up with it in the episode. That takes a lot of courage. It's a very scary thing, especially with somebody else in that process with you to sit there and let yourself actually explore [00:11:00] pain and discomfort. it's something that still, even though I've done, over 180 episodes of shelter in place.

[00:11:09] It's still uncomfortable. Every single time I hit that moment. I would say more often than not, I do end up going there, but sometimes I don't, , sometimes I explore it and then I decide not to include it in the episode.

[00:11:20] And I think that's an okay. End to things too. I feel like it's worth pausing and just acknowledging. How vulnerable that can be as somebody who's writing. And especially when you're in a collaborative situation where you have let somebody in on this thing that you've created. And now they're asking really tough questions about it that are forcing you to dig deep and maybe really change the way that things go.

[00:11:43] Even with Nate and me, , we've been collaborating on stuff for years and even still, when we're in a script together, it's very easy for it to get touchy and territorial.

[00:11:55] Coming into that process and having somebody else change your [00:12:00] phrasing or your words, or add new words or delete and put something else in there, it can feel really, really touchy fast. And yet when you're making a podcast and you have to work very, very quickly, there's both in need.

[00:12:15] To be able to be not too territorial about your work and kind of a magic that can happen when you don't get too precious about your own stuff. And this is something that I have learned, you know, , working with trainees in our Kasama collective. That I have to say to people , look, , I know when you're writing my voiceover, it's going to be super awkward to try to write somebody's voice over who you don't actually know all that well yet. hopefully you've listened to episodes of shelter in place. So you get a sense of what my voice sounds like but it can get very delicate to be editing each other's work. And when you have two or more people in a script, I think it's a good thing to just establish upfront. , these are the rules that we're all going to agree are okay in this process.

[00:12:57] I try to always make a point to [00:13:00] say, Hey, I'm not precious about my work. You can tell me if you don't like something that I did here. That's fine. We can change it back. We have version histories. If we really need to go back and undo things.

[00:13:11] to see your own writing, not as the be-all-end-all, but a necessary part of the scriptwriting process, that's going to get you to the next draft and the next draft. , but that's okay because we wouldn't have gotten to the final cut without that very important in between draft. 

[00:13:29] If you find yourself feeling territorial about your writing, You have options, , you can either say, I don't like collaborating with somebody else on a script. I want this to be my baby and I need to do this by myself , and that's, an option. Like we've had episodes where it's gone that way, because it just was too intense for people to be in that process with somebody else.

[00:13:49] That's an okay outcome. You can still make a good episode, but I would challenge anyone listening to this. To think about if you find that resistance in yourself [00:14:00] to just check your ego for a second and say, is there something to be learned by really engaging in the collaborative process of scripting with another person or even multiple people?

[00:14:12] Because I really do think there's something magical that can happen. And it happened with you in this episode. Like, it was such a fun thing to be creating this thing with you and to be having those back and forth conversations and then go right. And then have more conversations and go right again.

[00:14:27] And, There were times where we were both in the Google doc together, and I just love that part of the process. When you wrestle with the idea with another person and where you come out is so much better than you would have ended up on your own.

[00:14:41] Nik: Yeah, absolutely. A much better version was created through all of those drafts. 

[00:14:47] Laura: so, tell me about, how you felt after going through that process, where we basically. rewrote a lot of the script. It was the same story, but it dramatically changed from that point. 

[00:14:57] Nik: . Yes. Absolutely. And I [00:15:00] don't know, what other podcasters do? Like how collaborative the script writing is? But I was grateful for how collaborative it was because it challenged me as somewhat. Hasn't written collaboratively in a while, just because the nature of writing it's often very solo individual.

[00:15:20] So , it did challenge me. 

[00:15:22] A lot of my writing has been for the page. So Laura, you definitely helped me transform that writing and make it more sparkly and just easier on the ear we introduced that tension immediately instead of diving into a scene , the Shabbat scene that we thought we were going to dive into. I recorded voiceover for that shakes interview. We ended up using quite a bit of actually, and then I think Laura, for you.

[00:15:52] You ended up needing to think about the Sabbath in a deeper way, because , , you were confronted with needing to [00:16:00] actually think about it for you and your family. So I feel like towards the end, maybe you were still developing. your ideas on it because you were creating them in that moment?

[00:16:09] Laura: My favorite episodes of shelter in place have done that for me. \ it's the writing that actually changes me as I'm doing it. there are very specific episodes that I can point to where.

[00:16:21] They were challenging episodes because I was wrestling with these issues in real time. But then also what came out of that was deeply authentic and true. Your episode is one of those that it's like we do Shabbat differently.

[00:16:34] We do a weekly Sabbath differently because of this episode and because of the thinking and the writing and the conversations you and I were having, all of that was shaping our thinking as we were working on it. 

[00:16:48] And that's a great Testament to the power of story, but also the power of your story and your willingness to.

[00:16:55] Put that out there, you know, this deeply personal, really beautiful story[00:17:00]

[00:17:00] Nik:

[00:17:00] Anyone would say it's a little sad to see your work change. but I grew a lot and I am definitely less territorial now. And I think that's a great thing because I, learned so much about. Writing for a podcast and I knew that I was coming into it to learn. So I'm glad that we could, work on it together in that way.

[00:17:20] So I do encourage someone to not try and reach a final draft too quickly, but to remain open to change.

[00:17:29] Laura: That's, one of the lessons I keep learning, even though, , it's happened to me a million times now. Sometimes you think, you're done And then someone else comes into the process and makes a suggestion or an observation, or asks a question and it just, you realize this will be so much better if we can address this question or if we can explore this, research ; 

[00:17:51] Sometimes those questions are hard to hear, but they're so important. If you can allow yourself to be open to them. And again, 

[00:17:57] I think 

[00:17:58] a lot of it is 

[00:17:58] like checking your [00:18:00] ego because. You've poured your heart into this thing, Like, you've worked so hard with these words on the page, but letting it be okay that those early drafts, maybe they 

[00:18:09] get scrapped. And it doesn't mean that they're a waste of time. It just means like you needed that 

[00:18:14] you needed that to get to where you were eventually going to be. 

[00:18:17] And, that's where I think Allowing the creative process to be a little bit messy in the earlier stages. really helpful, , because there's so much to be gained from being open and exploring.

[00:18:27] And also, , there's no one right way to do it. If you truly feel too anxious to work on the script at the same time, you can work on it separately and then , , come in when. Someone else's finished and work on it in that way.

[00:18:42] Nik: there's many different methods 

[00:18:44] Laura: yeah. And I think 

[00:18:44] Even knowing that about yourself as a creator is really helpful. If you find out after trying this out with somebody else that it just makes you crazy, that's a really important observation and it doesn't make you a bad writer or a bad creator.

[00:18:57] It just means like, maybe the collaborative [00:19:00] process, isn't really your jam and that's okay. It doesn't have to be your jam. Like it can be a solo thing. And that's, one of the ways that you can do this. So again, like seeing even the uncomfortable moments of creating something. As an opportunity to learn about yourself as a creator and to figure out, what works for you? And it might change over time. There might be seasons of your life, where you're feeling secure and safe enough in yourself that you can be more collaborative, but there might be other times where that just actually feels a little bit too tender, or maybe it's not the right creative part.

[00:19:34] That can also be a very real thing. You're not going to have a perfect collaboration with everybody. 

[00:19:38] Nik: Yeah, I did just read recently in that book I was telling you about, and one of the. Writers and it had a contract with their editor. I love the kind of upfront shared things that say yeah, yeah, 

[00:19:52] Laura: people listening, what's the book so people can check it out.

[00:19:55] Nik: it's called telling true story. It's a collection of [00:20:00] essays on various subjects. And I just learned so much, I read it before the script writing presentation that I just did. And. It's journalism, , there's so much that intersects , with what I've learned and script writing. So yeah, I find that really fascinating, 

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