Reflections on In the Tunnel
Laura talks with co-writer Winnie Shi, producer Melissa Lent, and audio editor Eve Bishop

Laura: So I am here with Melissa Lent, Winnie Shi, and Eve Bishop, and the four of us were the team who created the episode that you heard this week, “In the Tunnel.” And I wanted to get this team together because when I think about the ideal scenario that I would hope for when working on an episode that's a very sensitive topic, this is the team that I think about. And so I wanted to invite these amazing women to first introduce themselves. And then to just talk together a little bit about what that process was like of creating this episode.

[00:00:35] Winnie: my name is Winnie. I'm a recent undergraduate with studying math and business. At the time that I joined Shelter in Place I was running my own podcast on the side as well, primarily focused around talking to immigrant Canadians and interviewing them and hearing their stories, and what it was like compared to my own as a second generation immigrant to Canada.

I'm currently working in the finance industry, so a little bit outside of the podcastings space, but definitely have an interest in it and had a great time at Shelter in Place. 

[00:01:03] Melissa: Hey everyone. I'm Melissa Lent. I am a researcher, a project manager, a podcaster, and a marketer. I actually am a project manager right now for Kasama Collective, and a researcher for Center for an Urban Future.

[00:01:21] Eve: My name is Eve Bishop. I'm the writer, producer, and host of the podcast, Deer Humans. And I'm also a Shelter in Place alum. 

[00:01:29] Laura: And why did each of you want to work on this episode? And Winnie, let's start with you, because this episode really began with you and it was your idea to begin with. Can you tell us a little bit about just why you wanted to do it?

[00:01:43] Winnie: Yeah, for sure. So this episode centers largely around my personal journey with mental health, which has been a very long one. And just to play on the title of the episode a little bit, the primary reason that I wanted to do this episode was to make sure that no one else felt like they were alone in that tunnel by themselves. You'll hear in the episode that I never reached the end. I'm still in that tunnel and I'm still going through it as well. 

The other part of it was just that there was an end to the tunnel. Even though you think of a tunnel as something that's very dark and very scary and very daunting to be in, it is a process that is a journey, and there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that there were many other individuals (like the ladies that joined me on this episode) that we were all in the tunnel with them or have been in the tunnel in the past.

[00:02:25] Laura: And what about you, Melissa? 

[00:02:27] Melissa: the more that we demystify mental illness or mental health struggles, the easier it is to have conversations about it and also to support people. Having conversations around mental health is something I'm really passionate about. And you can hear in the episode that Eve and I got to contribute a little bit about our own mental health struggles, which I still face to this day. And having those kinds of conversations, especially with this team, was really special to me.

[00:02:56] Eve: I also have personal experiences struggling with mental health. I have an anxiety disorder. I've struggled with depression, and mental health issues are also something that affects my family. And so I wanted to be a part of this episode because I think that I have something to share. I have personal experience with it, and I think it's much easier for people to feel like mental health is something they can talk about when there are tangible examples of other people who are talking about it openly. And I don't think that we as a culture talk about it enough. I feel like it is my duty to sort of share my story—and hopefully that can help other people feel like they're not alone. Because I think a lot of times mental health stories have a lot of overlap. There are so many shared experiences that I've realized friends and family members have had, but I never would've realized that if I hadn't opened up the conversation to talk about mental health. And so through this episode, I kind of wanted to share my story, and perhaps make someone—even if it's just one person—feel like, oh, okay, someone else is going through something similar. And she's doing okay. To see someone who like, kind of made it to the end of the tunnel . . . that can be really inspiring. And I think when I was at the lowest point in my mental health journey, hearing from people who have been through really hard things and have made it out and are doing all right—that was something that was really motivating for me. And just honestly a relief, to hear that other people experience what I experienced, but also that they're not gonna experience it forever. And I'm not gonna experience it forever.

I also wanted to work on the episode because I knew that it was a really tough episode to work on, and I wanted to be there to be a support, and I wanted Winnie to feel like that whole weight wasn't going to be carried on her shoulders.

[00:04:37] Laura: So what hesitations did each of you have about making this episode?

[00:04:42] Winnie: Oh, I definitely had a lot of hesitations just from a personal perspective. For the longest time, I didn't think I had a mental health problem. And I didn't think even if I could admit that I had a mental health problem, that it was to the extent that it would warrant going to a therapy session. And so that was a personal barrier that I had to overcome.

And then the second part of it was questioning if I was going to be able to give it justice, because I'm not a certified therapist. I don't have any qualifications. I mean, my story is my story. So it isn't necessarily a great representation of all of the stories out there, and I didn't know if I could do it justice. I wasn't at the end of my tunnel journey and I'm still going through it as well. So I didn't know if I had enough of a well rounded end to end journey to be able to provide the advice that would be of most help.

[00:05:27] Melissa: I want to affirm you, Winnie, because you putting yourself out there is a story. I think that sometimes we think that maybe our stories are kind of not enough, or that we're just one story. Why me? Why would anyone want to hear this? And so I can definitely understand why you had those kind of hesitations, because I think everyone has those kind of insecurities. But I just wanna say that even going into doing this episode, I didn't really have any hesitations, because I was just really inspired by how brave you were putting yourself out there. And I knew I was gonna be in that supporting role for you, so I was all in. I was ready. 

Something that I was mentioning earlier was breaking the stigma, but when you're contributing to breaking the stigma, you yourself are beholden to that very same sense of shame or guilt or insecurity about your own mental health struggles. And so that was kind of the hesitation that I had in terms of how am I gonna share that part of my story and how much should I be sharing? 

[00:06:29] Eve: I think my hesitations in working on the episode had more to do with how I was going to help tell other people's stories—you know, how am I gonna help construct the narrative around Winnie's story or around Melissa's story or Laura story? Because I can control all of the things that I say, but as soon as you start making editorial changes in someone else's words—especially when it's about a topic that is so deeply personal and can be so painful—it's nerve wracking to be constructing that narrative. And of course this was a collaborative episode. You know, Winnie and Laura did a big bulk of the work. So I did feel like they had a lot of control over how they wanted to tell their stories. But it can be nerve wracking, because you don't want to make any edits that are going to misrepresent that person. So I think for me, the biggest thing was kind of taking a backseat and saying to the other people involved, “hey, how do you wanna tell this story?” Like “Winnie, what do you wanna get across? What is your main message?” 

[00:07:20] Laura: How did each of you decide how much of yourself to share, and what was that process like for you of deciding how much to share? And again, let's start with Winnie and then we'll go Melissa, Eve. 

[00:07:32] Winnie: Yeah. So for me, once I had come to terms that I wanted to share this story that I had admitted to having a mental health issue, all the cards were on the table. I decided to share everything, because I didn't want to just have the highlights reel or just certain select parts of my story. I wanted to be able to make this as relatable to the average listener as possible. And so I really wanted to share as much as I could. 

The hesitation of what to share came from when I was referring to anyone that was close to me, whether it was friends or family. And that's just because although they were part of my story, it was also partly their story as well. I had a lot of hesitation about what I wanted to share about my mom, because I think with this story, there is a possibility of perhaps making it seem like she had been ignorant or naive to the situation—but there were so many other parts to my mom that I loved and I adored, that I didn't want listeners to think that this was the only side to my mom. And so there was a lot of hesitation there about what of my mom I wanted to share. And so that process was about sharing what I wanted to share and then maybe backtracking, editing, and figuring out what I wanted in the public eye, thinking about it over the course of a few days over a few nights, just to make sure that this was the accurate picture that I wanted to portray.

When I had the hesitation of how much I wanted to share about my mom and the light that it was portraying her in—if I was doing her justice or maybe being too harsh on her—I had so much support from the team. It was just a very supportive environment of consistently talking about the message that I was portraying, if that was the right one. So it was a very iterative process, but done with individuals that were very supportive of me, and I'm very happy with how the episode turned out.

[00:09:11] Melissa: I just have to agree that this is one of the best podcast teams I had ever been in, because we were just very open to being vulnerable with each other and putting it all on the table, knowing that no one was gonna force us to go farther than we wanted. No one was gonna force us to publish something in the name of the narrative. I felt really safe there in terms of laying it all out as a team and then seeing, okay, how much are we gonna share? Are there things that we're gonna pull back in the actual episode, if needed, if someone has this kind of extreme hesitation? And I found that to be really special, and honestly the best part of that creative experience of doing that episode with all of you. 

How I decided how much to share . . . I do think I pushed past some of those boundaries a little bit in terms of my own personal mental health experience. I had never admitted to myself that I had depression in college. It was by us talking in a group in a safe space that really, you all helped me accept my depression for what it was. And I think that is one of the most powerful things that can come from being in a safe and supportive environment like this, where we're all kind of getting personal. 

So there were a few things that I pulled back mainly because I didn't want people in my life finding out about it. Those were also hard decisions to make. You have to think about what will my family think if they listen to this? Or what will my friends think if they listen to this? Or what will my future employers think if they listen to this? I was able to kind of push past some of those boundaries, while also feeling safe to pull back a little bit if I needed, if I didn't wanna go all the way, because you've realized that this episode that you're putting out into the world, it doesn't exist in a bubble once you publish it. But it can be very freeing to go through that iterative process like Winnie was saying, and then putting that story out there.

[00:10:56] Eve: I didn't really have any hesitations—at least in sharing my own story. I'm very open about my experience with mental health. I'm very open about my experience with therapy and my experience with medication. And these are things that I've really come to accept over the years, because mental health wasn't treated as a topic shame and stigma in my family, at least. I'm proud of those things, because I think they've really helped me and I've grown a lot from both forms of intervention. And so I didn't really hesitate to share either thing, because I know there is still so much stigma and shame surrounding therapy, and especially surrounding medication, that if I, a person who feels really confident and proud and not ashamed of the fact that I go to therapy and that I take medication—if I can't share that story, who's going to? Because there are so many people who have been sort of indoctrinated with feelings of shame around mental health and about seeking help. So I feel like for me, because I feel comfortable talking about it, it's like, why wouldn't I if this can help someone who doesn't feel comfortable talking about these things, come to accept that, hey, maybe therapy, isn't such a bad idea? Or hey, maybe I should look medication. I just wanted to be able to share that so that maybe someone else could feel, like, oh, If all these people think therapy is okay, maybe it is.

[00:12:13] Laura: So now that the story is out there, are you all glad that you shared as much as you did?

[00:12:20] Winnie: Yeah. On the whole of it, I'm pretty glad. There are some days where I think back and think maybe I overshared. What's gonna happen now that it's in the public domain? And like Melissa said, if a future employer or heard this episode, what would they think?

But when I have those concerns, I remind myself that this is the true me. And if there's an employer out there, or if there's a friend out there that hears this episode, and maybe they view our relationship differently, then that's okay with me. Then that means maybe that wasn't a relationship or a friendship that I should engage in, because I want people to be able to know the real me. And if they're not willing to be a part of my life because of this aspect of me, then maybe it wasn't meant to be. So on the whole of it. Yeah. I'm pretty proud of it. 

[00:13:03] Melissa: Preach, girl! You want people to know the real you. I respect that. And honestly, I'm glad that I shared as much as I did, too, because Winnie, you said earlier that you wanted people to feel less alone in that tunnel with you. And I also wanna make people feel less alone. And if I can do that for one person, then it was worth it—even if that person is myself. 

[00:13:25] Eve: Yes, I am glad I shared as much as I did. Mental health, I think, is something that if anyone has the ability to contribute to this discourse, that's gonna help destigmatize mental health. It can really help other people feel less alone, and so if I could be someone who's putting my story out there and talking about it openly without shame, you know, hopefully someone listening could be like, oh, this person is okay talking about these things, and I've experienced similar things. So that must be okay for me to talk about. I'm glad I shared it. And I hope it helps someone. 

[00:13:56] Laura: I think it was one of the bravest episodes we've ever put out on many levels. I mean, your story especially, Winnie—but I think for all of us, it is such a beautiful picture of what that collaborative process of making episodes can be. Often those conversations that we were having felt like the best possible therapy to be talking with all of you about this stuff. And it wasn't anything that was forced. Like you said, Melissa, I think we all knew from the beginning, maybe we won't put this stuff out there. Maybe we'll just talk about it and it won't make the final cut. And I think that those conversations that happened behind the scenes were equally important for us to all just say, “nobody's required to put anything into this.” Like if we need to pull back, if we need to cut things, if we need to edit things out—that is a totally okay part of the process, and we want to honor that. But I just . . . I loved how supportive we were of each other and allowing each other to let it be a little messy when we were figuring that out. In many ways I think of this as kind of the gold standard for the way that I would want any episode to unfold and to come together with a team of people—and especially on a challenging topic like mental health, where there is so much there and it can be so vulnerable and so tender. 

What advice would each of you give to people who are considering telling personal stories, either as interviewees or through writing their own episodes?

[00:15:27] Winnie: Yeah. So first off, I wanna say a huge pat on the back for considering telling our personal story, because it is very vulnerable. It is your story. So to consider putting that out there in the public eye takes a lot of courage. And then just on that, I've got two things that I wanted to share. The first one is to think it through about what you want to share, what story you want to tell. And then the second piece of advice is just to surround yourself with supportive people that are going to help you every step of the way and just be your guiding hand, maybe when you need a little bit more support. And I was so, so fortunate to be surrounded by amazing ladies that did that. And if you're able to find any individuals that are able to support you the way that these individuals did to me, then I would say that you're in great hands, and that any story that you choose to tell will be taken care of.

I just find it so serendipitous to have met these amazing individuals and just have hit it off and be in such an environment where I feel so supported. I haven't had anything like it before, and it was just so amazing. So I’m just so grateful for that opportunity.

[00:16:28] Melissa: Winnie, that is so sweet. Oh, what a great experience! I loved working on that episode of all of you, and you all are amazing and talented, and Winnie (you are) super, super courageous to just even put that out there. And I think you're right. The best case scenario is finding a team or someone that you can trust—and it doesn't have to be your best friend in the world, but at least someone that you know is gonna handle your story with care. And if you are working with a team (or) you're working with a person who's interviewing you, just be upfront, saying, “you know, I'm open to talking it all out with you. Maybe knowing that not 100% is gonna go into the episode and can we just work well together to craft this narrative and figure it out together.” And that process can be really powerful that way. 

And then the second thing is if you're writing your own VO, I would say don't hold back. You know, who's gonna see your Google doc? Know that your story matters, and you can open up a whole world for someone or make someone feel less through that. 

So I would say it's okay to protect yourself and have these kinds of considerations of how much you want to share and give of yourself to the world—but at the same time, be open to challenging yourself and challenging your writing and giving yourself permission to be a little bit more vulnerable. And perhaps also expect vulnerability from the world back that receives your work. 

[00:17:50] Eve: I think the thing that's important is to share what you wanna share. Don't ever feel like you have to share something that you might not be comfortable sharing. I mean, again, I said that I regret nothing. I'm glad I shared everything that I did. And that's true, but it's also okay if there are things that you don't wanna talk about. It's okay to set boundaries for yourself and say, you know what? This is too personal. I don't wanna talk about this in a podcast. That's also totally okay. There are ways to tell interesting stories, meaningful stories without bearing your soul to the public.

With that being said, if you do wanna share something personal, I think it's really helpful to journal about it before you actually record or work with other people. I think having some time to process yourself, first of all, what is the story? Second of all, how much of it do you wanna share? Third, what do you hope that people get from it? And so for me with this episode, I just did a stream of consciousness journaling, where I just kind of wrote about my mental health. And then from there I read it back and then I was like, okay, I wanna share this. I wanna share this. Of course I ended up sharing all of it because I was like, I'm comfortable sharing it all, but what I'm trying to say is through that process, you may realize, huh. Maybe I don't wanna share this with the public or maybe this is something I need to think through more on my own before I share it.

It can also be really helpful to bounce ideas off of other people, so once you've taken that time to figure out, what is my experience, how do I feel about it, talk to someone you trust and see what they think. 

As an interviewee, I think it's the same thing. I think it's really taking time with yourself to figure out what you're comfortable sharing before you're put on the spot, especially being an interviewee, because you're not really in control of that. You can't undo what you said. You could ask people to cut it, but you know, you never know if that's gonna happen. So I think just taking time to think about what you wanna share before you share it, because it's harder to take it back than it is to just not say it in the first place. 

[00:19:37] Laura: I love that. And the advice that I would offer is kind of two different pieces of the same puzzle. So if you are being interviewed, whether that's for another podcast or the press—I think especially if you've shared something that's made you uncomfortable—it's okay to ask that person, hey, could you please show me this before this goes out into the world? Could I hear this? Could I read this whatever it is and give me a chance to comment before this is published? It's not always possible. But that is something that I wish I would've learned a lot sooner, that you can always ask for that. That's an okay thing to ask for. That's a courtesy that they can extend to you. Maybe they won't, but you can always ask. 

And then the flip side of that, I would say kind of jumping off of what you were saying, Melissa, is that if you find in, say your VO, that you're starting to go into personal territory, that feels uncomfortable, try as much as you can to see that as an opening into something. And again, it doesn't mean that it has to make the final cut. You know, you can make that decision later in the process. And if you decide, you know what? I don't want to include this. This is too personal. This implicates somebody in my life—you know, whatever it is, there are so many reasons not to include something—but to really understand that when we feel discomfort, that's our brains’ very clever way of giving us a signal of something that isn't right in the world or in our own life. And if we explore that, we can get to some amazing stuff sometimes. Like sometimes these really incredible realizations about changes we need to make or a different way of seeing the world can come out of exploring that very uncomfortable emotion. And I think that's kind of what happened in this episode. I mean, I think for all of us we pretty quickly got to a place of realizing that the reason we wanted to do this episode was it was real for all of us. We were all willing to explore that discomfort together. You were all in the tunnel with me, you know? We were there together, and it was a beautiful process, even though we were exploring something really challenging and hard and at times painful. And I think we really did end up someplace different than where we started.