S3:E19 // Two lives
January 27, 2022
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Episode description: "We all have 2 lives. The second begins the moment we realize we have only one.” Laura talks with Laurel Morales about why she chose these words to define her podcast "2 Lives," how they’ve defined their own 2 Lives moments, and what they’ve learned from that journey.
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Transcript:
My name is Laurel Miralis.
And I am Laura Joyce Davis
I am the creator of two lives stories of people who have faced some kind of darkness and how those moments transformed them in surprising ways.
And I'm the host and creator of shelter in place, which is a podcast that started with the pandemic.
But very quickly became about re-imagining life through creativity and community.
My favorite episodes are the ones I learned from and the ones that make me. Laugh and cry. Jake bacon is someone who comes to mind. he's a Local photographer who rescues wild animals until one threatens his life. Ross Shafer Alton bot is another one who could be a standup comedian. She shares a very traumatic experience, but one of the ways she deals with her trauma is through humor.
You mentioned how you love when episodes make you laugh and cry.
I loved your October 5th episode author. Carol Smith finds her way back across the river.
This episode opens with her talking about her son that she lost. And I did both in like the first, I don't know, five or 10 minutes of the episode. It was very quick, but I thought you did a really artful job of holding that tension of really hard things.
And then these really light, beautiful moments to the. Connect us to people.
Carol is a beautiful writer in her book. Crossing the river is a wonderful, wonderful read.
The episodes that I learned a lot from Dwayne , he's a Hopi artist, Dylan Wilder, Quinn, and Jenny Pearl. And Scott's to Beal who has written beautiful book. And it's a wonderful storyteller. Also makes me laugh and cry, but just has lots of wisdom to share
yeah, I was thinking about this and I've realized that my favorites kind of fall into two categories. One is the ones that show. Ended up being a lot of fun. And you mentioned humor. am a very earnest person, funny is not easy for me, but I'm really happy when humor happens
We had an episode in season two called rage road. One of our Kasama collective group. Clara Smith. This was her baby, her pitch idea for an episode. And it was all about the open streets movement in New York city during the pandemic where streets of New York city were shut down for pedestrians and bikers
There's this very prominent scene in the episode where she's talking about this driver who essentially tried to run her off the road.
But the music and the sound design that we did it, like, it actually was quite funny, even though at the same time, it's this very serious moment.
But I love that episode so much because we kind of set up the narrative to achieve humor and at the same time, let gravity of that moment land
And then the other category for the episodes that I love, I was realizing are the ones that end up being really challenging to write, like the ones that I wrestle with, because I feel like I'm living that moment.
As I work on the episode, there was one from season three, called stuck on the staircase. And it's all about languishing. As I was writing that episode, I was realizing I was languishing. And so I was having a very, very hard time. And yet the times what I've been able to push through that resistance in myself, a lot of times those ended up being the episodes that I'm actually most proud of because I got somewhere personally,
It's always hard work to get there, but it can be really rewarding to feel like, okay, this isn't just entertainment. it's actually something that's changing my life. As I interact with this art.
some of the favorite episodes of yours that I loved. I had a few and I think what I like in general about the podcast is it's like, Reconnecting with an old friend and being able to talk about the really hard things,
You had a few episodes about distance learning, but being able to just misery was just. Really helpful, shut up and listen was a really powerful episode. And then most recently I've enjoyed a better age. And as a former public radio reporter, I always tried to look for voices that we don't often hear from.
And I, just loved hearing from different generations and what they had to say. I even wrote down a quote that I loved. It's a portal to experience different worlds. I think that's one of the best parts of our job is being able to talk to. That we might not normally approach.
Yeah, I agree. It's, one of my favorite parts of doing this is just the amazing people that you get to meet and talk with .
How many episodes have you created and how many guests approximately have you injured?
Over the last year, year and a half, really it's, been mostly me producing, interviewing.
Doing all the things. As my husband says, you do the job of like five people. I did hire a story editor. who I find essential. She's been wonderful Camila Kerwin of the rough cut collective, but I have produced 20 episodes. I'm working on a fourth season of seven or eight more episodes through those episodes.
Probably twice as many, maybe three times as many people, each story is highly produced and scripted and sound designed. And so as you know, that all takes time. So I've taken some breaks in between seasons two. Get it. Well nothing's ever perfect, but it's my best, better done than perfect. As a good friend of mine often says, and I have to tell myself that all the time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The more you do this, the more you actually learn, you have higher standards for yourself I mean, I don't know if you've found that, but I've definitely found each season. The bar goes up of, oh, now I know how to do this a little better than I did last season. And so the standard is higher and sometimes it needs to be just done to the next episode.
How many episodes have you produced? We had a hundred episodes in season one and I think it was about 37 in season two. It has been somewhere in the ballpark of 170 or 180. I need to officially count that, but it's, a little nuts.
What's something that, you know, now that you wish you had known when you started podcasting?
Well, something actually you told me, I believe that I still had to go and learn the hard way. If I'm asking for a favor only ask for one thing of each person, something I think is good to know. If you're starting to podcast is invest in people that can help you and don't be afraid to ask for help.
How about you, Laura?
What is something that you've learned that you didn't know when you started podcasts? I mean, so many things,
I don't have a lot of regrets because I feel like so much of what I've learned is that the process is part of the story.
I had no idea how hard I'd work to just create episodes, let alone all the other pieces. I don't know that it would have changed anything for me, but I recently, maybe six months ago or so heard some advice from Lauren Pacelle, who I really enjoy her podcasts, the newsletter. And she's come to speak with our Kasama collective third cohort recently.
And I think she said something like you should spend 50% of your time on podcast creation and 50% of your time on podcasts marketing. And I will tell you, I have never, ever, ever come close to 50% on the marketing and promotion side, because I care so much about crafting great episodes. Like I can't not care about that.
And I think that's the fiction writer in me that I just can't let go of the creative process being hands down the most important thing. And I don't regret that because I'm very proud of the work we've done, but I do think that if I had been able to carve out either time or if I'd had the money to hire somebody, to help me with that, it probably would've made a difference in terms of making this work more financially feasible.
You hear a lot from people like, oh, podcasting is so lucrative and you can make money so easily.
And I have not found that to be the case. I mean, we're slowly getting there, but. Even, after winning an award. And we learned we're in the top 1% globally, which is really exciting. And you would think that that means you would be making money automatically.
And that is not how it works. that marketing and promotions and monetizing piece. I mean, it's like a whole job and I still feel like I'm probably never going to be that person who spends 50% of my time. Because there's only one of me
I mean, does seeing all of the content that you're putting out the newsletter in addition to a weekly podcast, I'm amazed and the mentorship and the education that you're doing. I don't know how you do it. , you're a hard worker. Well, I will tell you, like, I am at a point right now where I'm like, I need this year to be over.
Cause I need to rest, but I also think you know, my husband has done this work with me. The end of season one, I think it helped that we both went into this thinking of it as a startup and being realistic about, okay, in a startup, you're going to work really, really hard for probably at least two years before you see any financial return.
And I do think having that mindset has helped. Knowing, this is not something that we can do in this way forever, You know, being realistic about, yeah, we're just in a busy season and we know that and we accept that. but with the mentorship side of things, it was really never about money.
And it was just about finding satisfaction in the work. when We launched the Kasama collective almost exactly a year ago. That whole thing came out of the realization that downloads were never going to be satisfying even when we had a big spike in downloads, even then it's so fickle and fleeting and the next week, it's like why aren't people listening? And we just realized that if we were going to keep doing this work, there has to be something in it.
That's bigger than us and being able to pass on what I've learned, what we've learned together to our trainees felt. Something that was bigger than us. And that was bigger than the podcast. And hopefully launches these women and nonbinary audio storytellers to go on and do their own thing.
And
you know,
whether that's in podcasting or something else that if they have grown and been invested in creatively and personally, that's a gift.
Hopefully we'll serve them the rest of their life.
I think real mentorship is really rare.
For me, it's what people keep telling me is that these stories are meaningful to them. And I know that they're meaningful to me.
I learned about myself through each store. most meaningful feedback I've received is when people said, you know, I was going through a hard time. I found your podcast and it helped me through. And I, think you could say the same thing for a shelter in place. I think our shows.
Sort of a kinder and spirit in that way. And I've, felt that from the beginning even from, I think our first conversation, ] I really appreciate the work you're doing. And yeah, it's like, I think we need stories and people to tether us to hope.
So two lives, the name of the podcast comes from. By Confucius, who said we're all given two lives. The second begins the moment we realize we have only one. And so I ask everyone that I'm interviewing what that means for them. And so what does that mean for you? Laura?
I had a life that was before March 17th, 2020, and then the one that's happened since and in the life before I didn't have a bad life. I have three kids who I really love and appreciate and adore, my husband had a full-time job that seemed like it was going to be a stable thing for a long time.
you know, we had a life here in the bay area that we really loved it wasn't perfect, but there was a lot to be grateful for. And yet for many years, even before I became a mom, but I think especially once I became a mom, \ I just didn't feel content in the life I was in.
And I tried really, really hard to be content and to be grateful I think. I was not cut out to be a full-time stay at home mom, which I did for a lot of years, , I'd write sort of in the margins of that, or I'd have like one day of childcare that I would write frantically for that day.
And then when the pandemic came, you know, sort of by accident, almost my husband and I just flipped roles. Overnight. And in the beginning it was because we thought we were just doing this for two weeks and I had this, idea of doing a daily podcast and I thought it would be so easy and quick.
And I do it all in an hour a day. And, you know, ha ha ha. We all know how that one went. Two weeks in my husband lost his job and like many people at the time, his industry just kind of disappeared overnight because of that. And because the pandemic continued and because in doing this work, I was finding a part of myself that maybe had always been there, but I just had not been able to be connected to before creatively and personally.
I suddenly had a way to grapple with the moment that we were in, in real time, in the way that made the most sense to me and my writer brain.
Writing is how I show up best in the world things that come into these episodes it's the real me. It's not like you're getting a fake version of Laura.
I'm really honest about how much I struggle. And I hope that in sharing that that people can feel like they're not alone. If they're struggling,
And also, like we don't have to sit in the hopelessness, even if life does sometimes feel hopeless. I do think that this moment that we're living in right now, it's not the same as it was a year ago. And yet I think there's just sort of an enduring exhaustion in our world right now.
a lot of shelter in place has been looking at the old way, the. Normal looking at the new normal, and then saying is there a third way? is there actually something we haven't tapped into yet? And is it possible for us to not dismiss the hard things, but also not sinking them?
that's the paradox of living, right. Can we figure out ways to be connected and hopeful even as we're maybe grieving.
I want to ask you that question. I feel like I've had two lives in different areas of, of my life. If that makes sense, like career wise leaving public radio and embracing this new world of podcasting and creating my own show.
There's a before and after there for sure. It took me five years to leave my regular public radio job. And part of that is, tied to some, you know, emotional to lives believing that I'm worth it. And and my husband and I had budgeted. It all looked good on paper, but it, still took me sometime to, accept that and that, comes from some childhood stuff that I'm working through with a wonderful therapist.
The episodes that I've produced range from like a near-death experience to addiction, to depression, to lots of different darkness. And they all sort of fall under that category of darkness. I've had a couple of close calls that I think should be. One in particular, when I was debating, whether or not to go into podcasting was I was on assignment for story for NPR and coming home, tired, glanced at my phone and looked up and I almost crashed into a rock wall.
And so it was at that moment and, and thinking about, you know, what example I want to leave for my daughters. In terms of, doing something I really love. And thankfully my last public radio job, they had given me space create couple of limited run podcasts. So I knew it was something I really wanted to do, There wasn't a scratch on me or my car and it was just a close call. but it wasn't until that moment where I'm sweating heart pounding, pulled over at the side of the road going okay.
If this life is a short one, I need to make the most of it.