S3:E22 // How are you doing — really? 

FEBRUARY 17, 2022

Episode description: Laura and Eve Bishop met a little over a year ago—but so much has changed in that time that it feels like a lifetime. They talk about the challenges and changes that have shaped them both, the thing that unites their work, and why they’re still feeling hopeful even in this time of division.

Show notes:


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Transcript

Hi, my name is Eve Bishop. I am a podcast producer, a recent graduate of Pomona college, and most recently I have released my first independently produced podcast, which is called Deer Humans. It's a four-part audio documentary that explores the conflict in my hometown surrounding our local deer population and all of the different opinions that exist where I come from over, what to do about this issue, which has become sort of a public health and ecological issue that's become really divisive in my community.

Deer Humans is a very specific local conflict, but it's also a microcosm of issues that are happening all around the country and all around the world,  that have to do with our ability to coexist with the natural world and sort of negotiating the relationship between humans and the natural world and trying to figure out,  who has the right to inhabit space and who has the right to inhabit land. And so it's about deer. It's about people, it's about conflict and it's about community and how all of those things work together to create this really interesting story. 

I want to talk about how we met   it's just been a little over a year ago. It feels like a lot longer than that. I feel like we've had a lot more life together than just 13 months or whatever it's been. 

 I know it's crazy that it's only been 13 months. You said, I mean, it really does feel like a lifetime, but yeah. living at home  I had just gotten sent home from my study abroad program in Madrid. That's where I was in March of 2020. So that was really disappointing to get sent home, but, you know, it was kind of, we were all in the same boat.

And so I was spending time. With my parents and it was like the longest period of time I had spent with them since starting college in 2017. And while I was abroad, I had really started listening to podcasts kind of actively I don't know something about being far from home podcasts were very grounding for me.

I think hearing familiar voices while I was in this very distant place definitely made me feel more connected to life that I had before I was studying abroad.

That's when I started thinking, huh, maybe this is something I could do. I had done some internships in like television and film so sort of adjacent, media stuff, but never podcast specifically. But because of COVID.

There weren't really any internships people weren't hiring the world was kind of on pause,  and so that was around the time that I was like, Hey, well, if I can't get an internship, maybe I should just start  teaching myself how to podcast.  If no one else can teach me, then I'll teach myself. that was when I got the idea to start working on dear humans.   And around that same time  I joined the lady of listserv, which is, as you know, it's an email list serve with a bunch of really awesome women and non-binary podcasters just a really cool community where. Post job listings and ask for advice and share advice. 

And that's when I saw your message in  and I saw that, there was this podcast called shelter in place, and so I took a listen to the podcast and. I loved it.   It was the episode where you're on a road trip with your kids [Cyclops in Vegas] and there's a Cyclops obviously it's not a real Cyclops, but people can listen, tune in to find out.

Yeah. And it was awesome. I just loved it. I just felt like I was taken on such a journey like really put into your shoes. And so I really just like fell in love with your writing style and your podcasting style. And so I immediately reached out and applied for the apprenticeship.

Not really, no. What it would entail, but just knowing, oh, this sounds interesting. I'm at home really doing nothing because of the pandemic and I want to do podcasts.  

What was going on on my side of things was what, we were then calling an apprenticeship program, which now it's the Kasama collective training program. 

And, you know, you were very much part of that journey of us realizing like, oh, what we're doing is a training program.

We need to call it that. We realized we needed to make that distinction. But.  It was very organic, how it all came about. 

The backstory of what led up to that. Was my husband, Nate and I had been working on the podcast together since the summer of 2020. We were kind of at this point where  we both knew that we were doing the best work we'd ever done in our life.  And yet we were beginning to realize that downloads were never going to be the thing that satisfied us.  You know, it was so fickle. It was like one day you'd have 1500 downloads.

And then the next day it would be like, is anybody listening?    Nate and I had been talking for a while about the things that we were learning as we created this work, but we did not envision starting. What's now becoming a nonprofit in this whole thing that is most of our life is devoted to this now. 

A former grad school classmate had reached out to me, in maybe November of 2020. And she said, you know, I know somebody who is. Interested in learning how to do a podcast, but she doesn't have any experience. Would you be willing to take her on.   

I didn't even post it, but I had responded to an email on LADIO. There was somebody who said, Hey, I'm looking for mentorship opportunities. And we had taken on this one person. I mentioned rye waters was that person, my grad school classmate told me about. And I said, Hey, we just are starting this thing. You know, we have some modules that we've worked out that we're teaching,  maybe we could take on one or two more people. 

You were one of the people that then reached out to me and there were a bunch of others as well. It was really only in that moment of realizing,

Oh, there's a need here that we didn't even realize: to be invited into that process of narrative podcasting, to understand it start to finish.

Being allowed to touch the work in a way that I think you don't get too often and like an internship that's always been my experience of internships is I learned some stuff, but I never got to really work on anything that mattered.   I didn't come away from those experiences being set up well, professionally, and we really wanted to provide some way. To not only give people podcasting skills, but also to hopefully give them the kind of mentorship relationships that would set them up well for life and that they could 10 years from now. Call us up and say, Hey, I'm applying for this thing. Can you be a reference or can you give me advice or whatever?

And I had always longed for that in my own creative life.   I had wonderful teachers in grad school, but I got my MFA in 2006, like that's a long time ago to be asking for references. And so that was always sort of the vision behind it, of how can we set people? So that hopefully this is a good enough relationship that we set them up well for life.

And there's an ongoing support there. 


Yeah, We had that first conversation and I immediately knew like, oh, she's great. we're going to hit it off. We're going to connect.

I really help. She takes me on for this. you did. And I'm so grateful and it was all kind of history from there. Right. 

So I want to actually share with you my memory of my first time working with you you know,

You were in that first cohort of Kasama collective trainees You were the first person that I ever did a script with,  we were, co-writing having that sort of. Process of teaching somebody, not just to write an episode with you, but write your voiceover.

and we were sharing a Google doc and I remember. Walking out in the woods and having a phone conversation with you about it. 

Where you were like,  really? is it okay if I'm writing your voice over? And I'm like, you don't know me that well, but you absolutely should try to inhabit my voice and try to hear what that sounds like and write that way.

And I know that's going to be a little bit of an awkward process, but that's part of the learning curve is just giving yourself permission to try and,  then that's what editing is for, right? Like you can always change that script and have it evolve. 

 And I remember thinking,

this is a person who really understands what it means to collaborate. 

And I really appreciated your openness to that process. It really was so enjoyable to do that process with you. 

 That was a really cool experience for me because, I mean, you said it was your first time really collaborating with someone on, an episode. But for me it was my first time doing anything really on any podcast episode.  And so the fact that you trusted me to just go in and start writing VO,   it was just really, really cool.

Like I, had never really had that experience. Starting something new and just having someone be like, yeah, you're going to come on board and you're going to  an equal part in this.   I think that gave me like a huge boost of confidence and also just the space to really explore something totally new for me and fall in love with it.

Eve: I came out of my time with you guys with six producer credits and to go from just being a podcast listener and not really knowing anything about production to having six producer credits under my belt, not only was it an incredible learning experience, but it really gave me something tangible to show for myself.

And that, helped me get other jobs and it helped me with dear humans.  that was really just like a launching point for me. And so just really appreciate you bringing me on board and trusting me with that at such an early stage.

Yeah, well, it was fun. And, something that I have tried to hold on to not just in podcasting, but my whole life has a creative.

Laura: We can learn things from other people at all stages of life. And just because somebody is new to something doesn't mean that they're not going to have some really interesting things to teach you.

I'm thinking in particular of a couple of episodes that you and I did, where we were in the script together, or we were audio editing together  or, whatever it was. and sometimes. Tackling some pretty tough topics and really trying to be thoughtful about how do we write about this in a way that brings the nuance to this topic that's needed.

And doesn't try to make things neat and tidy because this isn't a neat and tidy topic.  I'm thinking particularly of the Justin Roberts. One of the things he talks about is how this church fell apart, over LGBTQ plus issues and the churches, very difficult history with that community. He was wrestling with this stuff and trying to understand it for himself. And so we were trying to honor that and trying to give space for a whole range of experiences.   

I really valued having you in that process with me, because it was such a complicated topic to try to dig into an honor, all of the different people who were involved in that story. on our Justin's story and try to make space for there to be some messiness in that, because it wasn't going to be something that we solved in one episode.  

Honestly, even I don't know that I could have done that in that way without you being part of the process.  I still remember conversations that we were having. Over Voxer, this voicemail app that we've used a lot,  and I think that collaboration at its best looks like that.

It looks like people coming together and being really honest about like, Hey, I'm actually not sure how we should do this. Like, can we talk through this  here's my ideas, but I don't know, is this even off base  and push back on me, if you need to push back   you and I did that  many times  but that episode in particular, I just think of as one that I'm so proud of.

And I love that episode. And also it was terrifying to put out there because I was just so worried that I was going to get it wrong. Having you in that process with me and you bring very different life experiences, we could kind of hold up each of our experiences and the story that Justin had shared with us, and really try to find a place to land with that, that felt like it was honoring everybody involved

Eve: I'm really glad you mentioned that episode because a lot of the lessons I took away from that ended up really contributing to the process of me creating dear humans. We were dealing with some really sensitive topics that could really elicit different reactions and maybe controversial reactions from people. And that's really scary to be the person who's creating a narrative around a subject that, you know, people are going to have. Pretty strong opinions about. And that's pretty much the entirety of my podcast is a conflict that people feel really, really passionately about.


I interviewed people who feel really passionately on one end of the spectrum, which is diehard animal rights, activists: we should not be hurting or capturing any of these animals, despite whatever impact they may have humans.  And then there are people on the total opposite side, who I interviewed, who are hunters, who are conservationists, who are trying to help the environment by taking down animal populations, and then there are people who fall every step of the way in between. 

Eve: something that was really difficult for me was staying true to the story that I wanted to tell and being honest about my reactions to what I was hearing, but then also honoring the opinions of all the people I interviewed.

And how can you do that? When all of their opinions are so different and some of them are actually directly clashing with one another. 

Something I took from that experience with you was being open about the journalistic process within the piece itself, so in Deer Humans, I do a lot of reflecting on what I've learned throughout the podcast.

Instead of just sort of relaying the facts that were given to me, I'm kind of grappling with my process. Understanding what's being told to me and trying to figure out where my opinion falls and how that relates to all the people I've spoken to, but then also not wanting to disrespect or dishonor someone's opinion because these people have the right to have their opinion too.

Eve: working with you on that Justin McRoberts episode really showed me that it is worth it to push through and take on a topic that could elicit strong reactions, as opposed to laying it safe. 

I do think the most interesting stories usually lie at that intersection of where people feel really, really conflicted about something.

I think just allowing myself into the journalistic process, which is something that you do so beautifully with shelter in place is really like, you are a character. Who is a part of all of these stories you're telling.  Allowing myself to be a part of the story I was trying to tell as well, and, not trying to be objective realizing I can't be objective.

And so if I can't be objective take advantage of my subjectivity, right? Like make that a part of the piece, make that something that can make the piece more interesting,

It's one of the great things that you bring to dear humans that makes it special.  Even as somebody who is learning it, you were open and you were willing to explore these different ideas and ways of doing things.

Laura: that is probably the most important quality of any storyteller or creative is to be open and to be willing to have those sometimes hard conversations so that you can land at a place that feels  more authentic, and honoring to the people you're writing.

As you say so well in your trailer, how do we look at our world and all of the division and disagreement and hurt and brokenness that we all see. And how do we honor each other's humanity? Not that we're all gonna get along. But how do we understand that the opinions and even the differences and disagreements that we have,  they all came from someplace. There's a story leading up to that for each and every one of us  that shaped our opinions and our beliefs and the way we show up in the world.

 And is there a way that we can understand those stories a little bit better? hopefully find some connection and a little bit less of the disagreement and loneliness and disruption that we are going to face inevitably.  

There's something so uniquely intimate about podcasting, about, putting your headphones in and just being able to kind of be a fly on the wall,   when you have to focus only on sound, you really can immerse yourself in a story in a way that I don't think is quite the same.  In other mediums, like film and TV.  think there's a lot of potential in being creative when you are limited in a sense. I think not having. Visual aspects to podcasts opens up lot of avenues for creativity.  Really fell in love with sound design.  All the different tools you can use to make people feel different ways with music and with sound effects and with your voice. 

During the last two years, having so many people in my life that I don't see any more. And so the only way sometimes that I get to experience those relationships is through like a voice memo that they send me  And I think that's been a big part of what's helped me. To not feel so long the last two years, even though there have definitely been stretches of time where I've hardly seen anybody, and I've realized that what I love about podcasting is the same reason. I love those voice memos  it gives me a little piece of that person.

I think that that's the kind of crazy thing about this medium is. There's a certain built-in intimacy when you start talking. at least for me as a writer, like I love writing, but I can waste hours on a single email because I'm overthinking what I'm saying and especially if it's somebody I don't know very well, I'm sitting there obsessing tinkering with every word and sentence. And when I talk. It's like, I free myself from all that perfectionism and all that overthinking.  even with text messages, it feels so much more me to leave a little voice memo, rather than type of text message.   There's so much that can be misinterpreted in an email or a text again, I'm a writer. Like I love the written word.

I will always love the written word,  but there's this wonderful kind of symbiotic relationship, between writing something on the page, and then speaking it through voice that allows me to kind of relax a little bit and be less tightly edited Laura. I can kind of relax into myself in a different way than I do on the page. 

 I think it's a really special medium, and I've just found a lot of comfort through podcasts and I've also learned a lot through podcasts.  it's just a really cool space. That's also just growing in really interesting ways. It's just booming right now.

Eve: I think that's really cool to be in a space where so many people are having all of these new ideas

and there are just more and more podcasts popping up, which can be intimidating as a podcaster, but it's also really inspiring.  there's a never ending pool of podcasts that I can listen to and find inspiration from. 

Well, I'm deeply, deeply proud of you if you're doing such awesome work.   Congratulations on launching dear humans. I can't wait to see where you go from here. And it truly is a delight to get to cheer you on.  

Well, I just wanted to say thank you as always.  This was really nice. Just getting to chat with you. About doing what we love.

It's really cool. And it's cool to see how our relationship has evolved too.  When you said  Relationships they're not just for the semester, like you're right. I mean, here we are a year and a half later and we're still collaborating and we're still supporting each other. And I think that's really great. And I feel like I've just found a mentor for life and you, and so I'm really grateful.